30mpg Hybrid Suburban SUV

Question:

>> > Not with the same equipment, but even using your number of > > $3,000. > It is the essentially the same equipment.  There are only very minor > differences. > I agree with your analysis about modest savings.  What it comes down to > is that fuel cost is a small fraction of the cost of ownership of most > vehicles. >I remember fuel prices at about 15 cents a gallon.

In the USA? When? I’ve been driving since 1954 and never saw gasoline at 15 cents save for the occasional price war, and even then it was more like 19 cents. >They are now about1.50 a gallon.

In the 1950s regular gasoline (which was leaded) sold for about 27 cents a gallon. Adjusted for inflation that would be about $1.80 nowadays. In the nearly fifty years I’ve been driving I don’t think gasoline has ever been cheaper than it has during most of the last decade. >What is the pay back time at $15 a gallon?

Depends on whether the $15 is inflationary or supply-demand. >In Developing a more efficient transportation technology isn’t easy, but we >need it. As I recall, Edison did thousands of experiments before making the >first successful electric light–and that is a simple technology. We should >applaud those who are willing and able to purchase hybrids, because they >help pay for the next round of experimental vehicles. Hopefully, someone >will succeed in making a more efficient, inexpensive, attractive, >Eco-friendly, personal transportation system.

May we applaud you? Have you bought a hybrid?     *       Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow         *     * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>I remember fuel prices at about 15 cents a gallon. They are now > about1.50 a >>gallon. What is the pay back time at $15 a gallon? >What’s sad is that even at $15 a gallon, payback still takes 2+ years, >and even this calculation does not include battery deprecation or >increased maintenance cost from the dual power plant (someone else >reported battery replacement cost at $5000 for a similar model vehicle). > What makes you think the differential between hybrid and gas-guzzler will be > $3000 in five or ten years?

Nothing, and I never claimed it would be. Then question was "What is the pay back time at $15 a gallon?"  The answer is above.

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>>-:Not when gas costs $4 a gallon.  What do you suppose will >-:happen the day a half billion Indians and Chinese want to fill >-:up before taking a pleasure drive? > How much gasoline does a bicycle take to fill it up?

I suggest you read up on things. Where do you think all that money spent on goods made-in-china goes besides the pockets of CEOs? Of course if you are obviously western, driving in china is not recommended.

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>> More than that there is also the issue of replacing batteries and the > environmental impact on their disposal.  So you save the environment today > at the cost of the future. >They get recycled.  Keep in mind that these are not lead-acid batteries >but NiMH or (soon) something better.

What is the recyclability of the nickel? If a battery contains, say, 100 kg of nickel, how much of that nickel will be reused? Nickel is also a hazmat.     *       Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow         *     * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

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Since June 2000 college engineering students around the country have successfully converted Cheverlot Suburbans to hybrid gas-electric vehicles. The result, a giant SUV that gets 30 mpg: http://www.team-fate.net/projects/Sequoia/media/News03a.wmv http://www.house.gov/petri/press/truckrel.htm http://www.futuretruck.org/ The myth of hybrid vehicles restricted to tiny Prius’ and Insights’ is being shattered.

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If they had chosen diesel, they could have upped that to 38 or higher. And it could have been fueled by an environmentally friendly waste product, Vegetable Oil. http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/yohn — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Since June 2000 college engineering students around the country have > successfully converted Cheverlot Suburbans to hybrid gas-electric > vehicles. The result, a giant SUV that gets 30 mpg: > http://www.team-fate.net/projects/Sequoia/media/News03a.wmv > http://www.house.gov/petri/press/truckrel.htm > http://www.futuretruck.org/ > The myth of hybrid vehicles restricted to tiny Prius’ and Insights’ is > being shattered.

Response:

The problem with hybrids is the extra cost to acquire them. Although they get somewhat better fuel mileage than their gasoline’s engine sibling one would have to drive them twice the life of the vehicle just to break even on fuel costs.   The $5,000 extra purchase price for those available today will by ALL the gas for the non hybrid for eight years or more. mike hunt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Since June 2000 college engineering students around the country have > successfully converted Cheverlot Suburbans to hybrid gas-electric > vehicles. The result, a giant SUV that gets 30 mpg: > http://www.team-fate.net/projects/Sequoia/media/News03a.wmv > http://www.house.gov/petri/press/truckrel.htm > http://www.futuretruck.org/ > The myth of hybrid vehicles restricted to tiny Prius’ and Insights’ is > being shattered.

Response:

> The problem with hybrids is the extra cost to acquire them. > Although they get somewhat better fuel mileage than their > gasoline’s engine sibling one would have to drive them twice the > life of the vehicle just to break even on fuel costs.   > The $5,000 extra purchase price for those available today will by > ALL the gas for the non hybrid for eight years or more.

The street price of the Honda Civic Hybrid is $3000 more than the equivalent non-hybrid model, not $5000, but then again, the non-hybrid civic doesn’t use much fuel to begin with.

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> The problem with hybrids is the extra cost to acquire them. > Although they get somewhat better fuel mileage than their > gasoline’s engine sibling one would have to drive them twice the > life of the vehicle just to break even on fuel costs. > The $5,000 extra purchase price for those available today will by > ALL the gas for the non hybrid for eight years or more. > mike hunt

More than that there is also the issue of replacing batteries and the environmental impact on their disposal.  So you save the environment today at the cost of the future.

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Not with the same equipment, but even using your number of $3,000.  If one drives 12,000 miles a year and get 45 MPG rather than 35 MPG it will take 24 years to save $3,000 at a gas price of $1.40.  $3,000 will buy ALL the gas at 35 MPG for a little over SIX years in any event. You do the math. mike hunt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The problem with hybrids is the extra cost to acquire them. > Although they get somewhat better fuel mileage than their > gasoline’s engine sibling one would have to drive them twice the > life of the vehicle just to break even on fuel costs. > The $5,000 extra purchase price for those available today will by > ALL the gas for the non hybrid for eight years or more. > The street price of the Honda Civic Hybrid is $3000 more than the > equivalent non-hybrid model, not $5000, but then again, the non-hybrid > civic doesn’t use much fuel to begin with.

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Plus the replacement price, at some point.  The Prius  currently has an eight year 100K warranty but the current replacement price for the battery pack is $5,000!!!  Hybrids are used by rich folks, like Senators, Hollywood types and rap artist to commute to the ‘work,’ that want to save the world from global warming. Their other vehicles are a stretch Hummer, Lincoln Navigator for the wife and a V12 Astin Martin Vanquish for the weekends. mike hunt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The problem with hybrids is the extra cost to acquire them. > Although they get somewhat better fuel mileage than their > gasoline’s engine sibling one would have to drive them twice the > life of the vehicle just to break even on fuel costs. > The $5,000 extra purchase price for those available today will by > ALL the gas for the non hybrid for eight years or more. > mike hunt > More than that there is also the issue of replacing batteries and the > environmental impact on their disposal.  So you save the environment today > at the cost of the future.

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> Not with the same equipment, but even using your number of > $3,000.  If one drives 12,000 miles a year and get 45 MPG rather > than 35 MPG it will take 24 years to save $3,000 at a gas price > of $1.40.  $3,000 will buy ALL the gas at 35 MPG > for a little over SIX years in any event. You do the math. > mike hunt

Don’t confuse me with fact, my mind is made up! Dr. Bob

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> Not with the same equipment, but even using your number of > $3,000.

It is the essentially the same equipment.  There are only very minor differences. I agree with your analysis about modest savings.  What it comes down to is that fuel cost is a small fraction of the cost of ownership of most vehicles.

Response:

Steve! Did you get your Mini Cooper??? If so, how do you like it?? Donna

Response:

> Not with the same equipment, but even using your number of > $3,000. > It is the essentially the same equipment.  There are only very minor > differences. > I agree with your analysis about modest savings.  What it comes down to > is that fuel cost is a small fraction of the cost of ownership of most > vehicles.

I remember fuel prices at about 15 cents a gallon. They are now about1.50 a gallon. What is the pay back time at $15 a gallon? Developing a more efficient transportation technology isn’t easy, but we need it. As I recall, Edison did thousands of experiments before making the first successful electric light–and that is a simple technology. We should applaud those who are willing and able to purchase hybrids, because they help pay for the next round of experimental vehicles. Hopefully, someone will succeed in making a more efficient, inexpensive, attractive, Eco-friendly, personal transportation system. — Ed Earl Ross Shimon Peres: "If a problem has no solution, it may not be a problem, but a fact- not to be solved, but to be coped with over time."

Response:

> If they had chosen diesel, they could have upped that to 38 or higher. And > it could have been fueled by an environmentally friendly waste product, > Vegetable Oil. > http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/yohn

Actually, his article says that it IS a diesel/electric hybrid; more efficient than a diesel alone. I don’t know if something that heavy could ever be made to get 38+ MPG, at least with the power and torque many Americans expect from the full diesel or gas versions. With ad campaigns touting ever-more power each year, there will have to be a major reversal of consumer thinking, especially among "conserv"atives who don’t seem to care about efficiency at all. Sooner or later they’ll have to admit that big, heavy trucks are just wasteful. If they don’t really need them they shouldn’t buy them, whether or not they think they can "afford the gas" (society can’t afford the _waste_). Today’s "conservation" relies too much on technology vs. lifestyle changes. It panders to greed over restraint; a panacea of eager grad students solving all our problems while we sit back and pretend resource scarcity is a non-issue. Also, vegetable oil would become environmentally-harmful if we used it on a large economic scale. Where would the land come from to grow all those plants? The answer is more wilderness would have to be cleared because we’re already building houses on existing farmland. Relentless population growth ensures that the situation will only get tighter. E.A. http://enough_already.tripod.com/ If any other species behaved like Man we’d call it a plague.

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>Not with the same equipment, but even using your number of >$3,000.  If one drives 12,000 miles a year and get 45 MPG rather >than 35 MPG it will take 24 years to save $3,000 at a gas price >of $1.40.  $3,000 will buy ALL the gas at 35 MPG >for a little over SIX years in any event. You do the math.

This math does not include the increased cost to society of increased asthma, global warming, cancer, etc. Do whats right even if there is nothing in it for you. — Charles Indifference = Consent

Response:

> I remember fuel prices at about 15 cents a gallon. They are now about1.50 a > gallon. What is the pay back time at $15 a gallon?

What’s sad is that even at $15 a gallon, payback still takes 2+ years, and even this calculation does not include battery deprecation or increased maintenance cost from the dual power plant (someone else reported battery replacement cost at $5000 for a similar model vehicle).

Response:

> The myth of hybrid vehicles restricted to tiny Prius’ and Insights’ is > being shattered.

There never was such a myth. It’s been well known that size is an advantage for hybreds because it gives room for all the equipment. Diesel electric locomotives are a prime example of large hybred vehicles. There have also been city buses and the like. The bigger the vehicle the better suited it is to be a hybred, because of the ability to contain a large battery capacity and keep the ICE powerplant in the max efficency range generating electricty.

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> I remember fuel prices at about 15 cents a gallon. They are now about1.50 a > gallon. What is the pay back time at $15 a gallon? > What’s sad is that even at $15 a gallon, payback still takes 2+ years, > and even this calculation does not include battery deprecation or > increased maintenance cost from the dual power plant (someone else > reported battery replacement cost at $5000 for a similar model vehicle).

What makes you think the differential between hybrid and gas-guzzler will be $3000 in five or ten years? Moreover, what makes you think the battery replacement cost will be remain at $5000 over time. These costs may either increase or decrease over time. If you pour water on the match, you cannot light a fire. If we quench new ideas, we will not find our way to a better future. — Ed Earl Ross — Einstein: "Only daring speculation can lead us further, and not the accumulation of facts."

Response:

> The problem with hybrids is the extra cost to acquire them. > Although they get somewhat better fuel mileage than their > gasoline’s engine sibling one would have to drive them twice the > life of the vehicle just to break even on fuel costs. > The $5,000 extra purchase price for those available today will by > ALL the gas for the non hybrid for eight years or more.

Not when gas costs $4 a gallon.  What do you suppose will happen the day a half billion Indians and Chinese want to fill up before taking a pleasure drive? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Since June 2000 college engineering students around the country have > successfully converted Cheverlot Suburbans to hybrid gas-electric > vehicles. The result, a giant SUV that gets 30 mpg: > http://www.team-fate.net/projects/Sequoia/media/News03a.wmv > http://www.house.gov/petri/press/truckrel.htm > http://www.futuretruck.org/ > The myth of hybrid vehicles restricted to tiny Prius’ and Insights’ is > being shattered.

Response:

> More than that there is also the issue of replacing batteries and the > environmental impact on their disposal.  So you save the environment today > at the cost of the future.

They get recycled.  Keep in mind that these are not lead-acid batteries but NiMH or (soon) something better.

Response:

> The myth of hybrid vehicles restricted to tiny Prius’ and Insights’ is > being shattered. > There never was such a myth. It’s been well known that size is > an advantage for hybreds because it gives room for all the equipment. > Diesel electric locomotives are a prime example of large hybred > vehicles. There have also been city buses and the like. The bigger > the vehicle the better suited it is to be a hybred, because of the > ability to contain a large battery capacity and keep the ICE powerplant > in the max efficency range generating electricty.

Locomotives do not carry batteries. They use the motor-generator replaces the transmission, a more reliable design compared to a mechanical transmission. Thus, life-cycle cost is reduced. Whether a similar cost reduction is possible for smaller vehicles remains to be seen, but current low-volume sales do not show lower prices. — Ed Earl Ross Shimon Peres: "If a problem has no solution, it may not be a problem, but a fact- not to be solved, but to be coped with over time."

Response:

>> There never was such a myth. It’s been well known that size is > an advantage for hybreds because it gives room for all the equipment. > Diesel electric locomotives are a prime example of large hybred > vehicles. There have also been city buses and the like. The bigger > the vehicle the better suited it is to be a hybred, because of the > ability to contain a large battery capacity and keep the ICE powerplant > in the max efficency range generating electricty. > Locomotives do not carry batteries.

Didn’t say they did. I moved on to buses before mentioning batteries. Ah the joys of usenet…

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >-: >-: >-: >-:> The problem with hybrids is the extra cost to acquire them. >-:> Although they get somewhat better fuel mileage than their >-:> gasoline’s engine sibling one would have to drive them twice the >-:> life of the vehicle just to break even on fuel costs. >-:> The $5,000 extra purchase price for those available today will by >-:> ALL the gas for the non hybrid for eight years or more. >-: >-:Not when gas costs $4 a gallon.  What do you suppose will >-:happen the day a half billion Indians and Chinese want to fill >-:up before taking a pleasure drive? >-:

How much gasoline does a bicycle take to fill it up? >-: >-:> > Since June 2000 college engineering students around the country have >-:> > successfully converted Cheverlot Suburbans to hybrid gas-electric >-:> > vehicles. The result, a giant SUV that gets 30 mpg: >-:> > >-:> > http://www.team-fate.net/projects/Sequoia/media/News03a.wmv >-:> > http://www.house.gov/petri/press/truckrel.htm >-:> > http://www.futuretruck.org/ >-:> > >-:> > The myth of hybrid vehicles restricted to tiny Prius’ and Insights’ is >-:> > being shattered.

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