Looking for testimonials: Does Endogenous Respiration Work?
Question:
Why this public self-castigation in the form of breath deprival masquerading as medical treatment? Post your stuff to a psycho or cult group to get a proper discussion. There is no conspiracy to suppress knowledge about carbon dioxide’s "role as a sovereign remedy for asthma and masses of other ailments" (the Buteyko agenda). Peter Kolb is a notorious spammer who never stands his ground. A public nuisance. If the pulmonologists and ENT docs have a guilty secret, a mean trick of the trade, then it would appear to be concealing the paradoxical effect of nasal resistance on depth of inhalation, but this appears to be due to rigid compartmentalization of the body rather than to malice aforethought. A Google or PubMed search will reveal that some ongoing asthma research is centered on the bronchiodilating effect of a deep inspiration. See f.i. J Appl Physiol 2000 Aug;89(2):711-20 "Potent bronchoprotective effect of deep inspiration and its absence in asthma" – and many other studies with authors such as Permutt, Togias and Kapsali. However there does not appear to be least hint here to the effect of nasal resistance. There are no details of how the deep inspiration is performed. But a simple test with a peakflow meter or incentive spirometer will show you that an inspiration leads to a sizable inspired volume if done normally with a distinct feeling of air flow in the nose. If you do the inhale with your mouth very wide open and as if you were going to cough, then the volume will be very much smaller. Training to increase nose resistance has helped me to get more air into my lungs at any time I like naturally. However for some reason which the layman cannot understand this fact is not taken into account in said ongoing research. The asthma pundits stick to considering the lung as if resistance in the upper airways (nose, throat) were irrelevant. Does the principle of compartmentalization really stand higher than common sense and save a study from being scientifically flawed? Returning to the poster’s point, SIMT (specific inspiratory muscle training) is much less onerous than Buteyko, is reasonably safe and healthy and is recommended by a leading asthma researcher and author of studies on it. Just do a Net search with the key words "inspiratory" and "asthma" to review the claims of the makers of the gadgets. Here are some links to illustrations from the material on SIMT devices. http://gymratz.co.uk/usrimage/cat57.jpg http://www.ultrabreathe.com/ubcolm2.JPG http://www.allergysupply.com/images/a_730.gif http://www.j-f-financial.com/sportsbreather/BreatherTrans.JPG%2012K.jpg http://www.brunel.ac.uk/depts/des/research/staff/images_am/akm2.jpeg http://www.trainair.co.uk/images/handset2.jpg http://www.powerlung.com/products/trainer_icon.gif Regards, Richard Friedel
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Well Buteyko worked for me and I am now in my 6th drug free year > after years of continual asthma medications, with nasty bonichal > infections. Prior to adult onset of asthma, I would have suffered > successively from hayfever, chronic rhinnitus and sinusitus. > There are two big trials of the method being conducted in England and > Scotland that will hopefully soon be published. > Preliminary results of the Nottingham University trial can be viewed > at > www.asthma-research.org > They are being presented at a conference on respiratory medicine this > month. > The Glasgow trial is bigger and seems to be more promising but as yet > no official report though the initial work has been completed. > For those of you who want a good website to get more information > For information on Buteyko Breathing Therapy provided by > grateful users. > http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm > Anne
Response:
>I don’t think they’re "afraid" of anything. >More likely it’s a front for companies selling various alt med products. >They want your address and phone number to give to the telemarketers, no >doubt. >And they want your email address, in order to email you spam >advertising.
I agree that something smells fishy here. Go to any other organization and you will see a link to their ‘parent’ university or agency. — "We are fighting today for security, for progress, and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all men, not only for one generation but for all generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world of ancient evils, ancient ills." Franklin Delano Rosevelt State of the Union Address – 1942
Response:
>I don’t think they’re "afraid" of anything. >More likely it’s a front for companies selling various alt med products. >They want your address and phone number to give to the telemarketers, no >doubt. >And they want your email address, in order to email you spam >advertising. > I agree that something smells fishy here. Go to any other > organization and you will see a link to their ‘parent’ university or > agency.
I think you’re right guys. I did register and received my approval within a matter of minutes (not a couple of days as they suggest). I had a good look at the site. Nothing spectacular, but had a tendency to promote the fact that a clinical trial for Buteyko, supposedly being undertaken by a Notts Hospital is having the results falsified (sp) by the researchers. Lots of mention of a website called LIFESource with markets (very expensively) all sorts of teaching products for Buteyko. RayB
Response:
> I think you’re right guys. I did register and received my approval within a >matter of minutes (not a couple of days as they suggest). I had a good look >at the site. Nothing spectacular, but had a tendency to promote the fact >that a clinical trial for Buteyko, supposedly being undertaken by a Notts >Hospital is having the results falsified (sp) by the researchers. Lots of >mention of a website called LIFESource with markets (very expensively) all >sorts of teaching products for Buteyko.
So the people are nothing but a ’stealth’ buteyko-marketing organization. (And I am willing to bet Notts Hospital’s research is not showing Buteyko a success.) — "We are fighting today for security, for progress, and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all men, not only for one generation but for all generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world of ancient evils, ancient ills." Franklin Delano Rosevelt State of the Union Address – 1942
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Preliminary results of the Nottingham University trial can be viewed >> at >> www.asthma-research.org >Unfortunately you have to register for this web site. They want addresses, >phone numbers and try to set a cookie. Also, you have to get approved for >access and it will take a couple days. > Why the registration? And why the approval? Why can’t ALL interested parties > simply acces the site, and read the preliminary results? What are they afraid > of?
I don’t think they’re "afraid" of anything. More likely it’s a front for companies selling various alt med products. They want your address and phone number to give to the telemarketers, no doubt. And they want your email address, in order to email you spam advertising. — Steven D. Litvintchouk
Response:
> There are two big trials of the method being conducted in England and > Scotland that will hopefully soon be published. > Preliminary results of the Nottingham University trial can be viewed > at > www.asthma-research.org
Unfortunately you have to register for this web site. They want addresses, phone numbers and try to set a cookie. Also, you have to get approved for access and it will take a couple days.
Response:
>> Preliminary results of the Nottingham University trial can be viewed > at > www.asthma-research.org >Unfortunately you have to register for this web site. They want addresses, >phone numbers and try to set a cookie. Also, you have to get approved for >access and it will take a couple days.
Why the registration? And why the approval? Why can’t ALL interested parties simply acces the site, and read the preliminary results? What are they afraid of? I personally do not wish to submit private information about myself. Israel Weber
Response:
Colin, Could you tell me more on this topic? I haven’t ever met a practitioner so I am curious about your statement that they "misrepresent scientific research". I thought that it wasn’t the researcher’s fault the study was compromised, but that the 2 groups happened to exchange information (therefore no double blind). So, I was under the impression they had no valid study, not that one that had been "invented". My recollection may be bad, but I thought that the study group had no measurable improvement (lung function tests) but there was a reduction in the amount of meds they felt they needed. There was some reference somewhere to someone who waited to long to go the hospital and almost didn’t make it but that most of the asthmatics felt they benefited. I didn’t get the impression to many felt they were cured though. Also, the person on TV was supposed to be some drug company person who converted. I think (?) that is the "fairly convincing TV documentary" they were talking about. I don’t know the position of the person who converted. If the person was in marketing, I would be less convinced than if he were an actual scientist with the company. You know what the problem is. They claim to cure so many diseases, they end up looking like medicine men. I would like to see a couple of really VALID studies just so we can more on. If you do learn to control your breathing and you are hyperventilating in an attack, wouldn’t just that control over the panic factor help?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Actually, Buteyko is a known scam. >Really? Where does your evidence for this come from? There was a fairly >convincing TV documemtory about the Buteyko method a year or so ago. I know >that the amount which practitioners charge for teaching an exercise which is >probably dead easy to learn by yourself is nothing short of extortion, but >does the technique really not work? > Ask the practitioners for actual scientific evidence that it works. > Ask the practitioner why they have to misrepresent scientific research > in order to support their claims. Ask the practitioner why the > authors of the Brisbane trial had to _lie_ in order to get the paper > published. Ask them why they have been unable to prove their basic > theory – after 40+ years. Ask them why that had to go to a TV show > instead of simply conducting clinical trials that would either prove > or disprove the theory. > One of the favorite tricks of the fraudsters is to go straight to the > popular media (who are typically unable to evaluate their claims). > Whenever you seen anybody going to popular media instead of publishing > in peer-reviewed scientific journals – you can be sure that what they > are selling cannot withstand the scrutiny of people who really do > understand the subject. > — > "We are fighting today for security, for progress, > and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all > men, not only for one generation but for all > generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world > of ancient evils, ancient ills." > Franklin Delano Rosevelt > State of the Union Address – 1942
Response:
> Well Buteyko worked for me and I am now in my 6th drug free year > after years of continual asthma medications, with nasty bonichal > infections. Prior to adult onset of asthma, I would have suffered > successively from hayfever, chronic rhinnitus and sinusitus. > There are two big trials of the method being conducted in England and > Scotland that will hopefully soon be published. > Preliminary results of the Nottingham University trial can be viewed > at > www.asthma-research.org
Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou Anne. Finally the sort of reply I was hoping for! Now whether or not any of you sceptics are prepared to believe that Anne has genuinely benefitted from Buteyko is up to you, but I like the way she has been able to back up what she says with URL links (the aussie one didn’t work BTW:). I’ve now registered with the asthma-research site and will read the Notts Uni prelim trial results as soon as my registration is accepted. Thanks again Anne.
Response:
>I realise that I probably suffer from asthma a lot less than most people >who read/post to this newsgroup, (it’s now my turn to sympathise with people >like Steven), but I’m simply trying to investigate anything that might >enable me to enjoy a happier/ healthier lifestyle in the later years of my >life than I do now.
Well Buteyko worked for me and I am now in my 6th drug free year after years of continual asthma medications, with nasty bonichal infections. Prior to adult onset of asthma, I would have suffered successively from hayfever, chronic rhinnitus and sinusitus. There are two big trials of the method being conducted in England and Scotland that will hopefully soon be published. Preliminary results of the Nottingham University trial can be viewed at www.asthma-research.org They are being presented at a conference on respiratory medicine this month. The Glasgow trial is bigger and seems to be more promising but as yet no official report though the initial work has been completed. For those of you who want a good website to get more information For information on Buteyko Breathing Therapy provided by grateful users. http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm Anne
Response:
> I did try Frolov endogenous breathing. > You breathe in through a chamber with a volume of about 250 cc and > having a water resistance in it giving a water head of a few > millimeters. This small pressure head might be quite critical for the > results.
At last! A reply from someone who either wrongly or rightly claims to have tried one of the methods I’ve been talking about, (depending on whether your prepared to believe him or not:). This is all I was asking for. Believe what you will of me, but I definitely did not start this discussion simply to start an argument. I as I have previously said…..I have had EIA for over forty years, and I’m willing to give anything a fair trial. I certainly don’t advocate anything as being a miracle cure. I’m simply not willing to dismiss something until I’ve done as much as I feel I can, to convince myself that it really doesn’t work. This is why I posted to this newsgroup. In the hope that I would get a lot of feedback from people who can really say, ‘Well I tried that, and it was a complete waste of time’ or ‘Yes, it’s brilliant and it really worked for me’. Yes I know that the Internet, (and particularly newsgroups), is one of the most corrupt environments on this planet, but I suppose what I was hoping for, was more positive feedback than negative. I realise that I probably suffer from asthma a lot less than most people who read/post to this newsgroup, (it’s now my turn to sympathise with people like Steven), but I’m simply trying to investigate anything that might enable me to enjoy a happier/ healthier lifestyle in the later years of my life than I do now. After all…..If I have to rest for 5 mins or so after just climbing a couple of flights of stairs, what am I going to be like in another 10-20 years? I like so many others, hate having to pump my body full of ’scientifically researched drugs’, just to be able to live some sort of a normal lifestyle, but if that’s the only alternative, (which I find difficult to believe), then so be it!
Response:
My experience with Buteyko was, on reflection, entirely disappointing. 1) The technique of curbing an attack of asthma by savagely reducing breathing (less hyperventilation) seems impressive in some cases, but does not seem to work by the way suggested by Dr. Buteyko. What in fact one does is to reduce upper chest breathing (comically called "deep breathing"), and this forces diaphragmatic breathing to take place without however moving the abdominal wall much. This would seem to explain relief in an attack. In any case the practice would seem to be dangerous. It is known that a reduced awareness of asthma symptoms can be a killer. Buteyko does not regularly recommend diaphragmatic breathing as such. On the contrary his messed up breathing terms and particularly the use of "deep" would seem to discourage it. It seems to be a question of getting people to build their own reality as pointed out by Colin. 2) Reducing hyperventilation does not put any sort of handle on asthma, as clinical tests have shown. A tendency to hyperventilate (lose too much carbon dioxide) seems to be due to a poor distribution of perfusion (blood supply) and ventilation in the lungs possibly expressed in atelectasis in an extreme form. This, to my mind, can be positively influenced by genuine diaphragmatic breathing, but not by trying to correct the asthmatic’s undue loss of carbon dioxide by breathing less, even although one should be aware that hyperventilation in asthma is not helpful. In other diseases such as diabetes it may be a life-saving defense tactic of the body, but just try telling a buteykoite about this! 3) Another basis of Buteyko is discouragement of a wrong but state-recommeded type of breathing exercise over-emphasizing upper chest breathing. This seems to be completely irrelevant in our day and age. Even if such exercises are recommended in schools, they would, one supposes, be done with a correct and healthy sensation of airflow in the nose. Regards, Richard Friedel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Actually, Buteyko is a known scam. > Really? Where does your evidence for this come from? There was a fairly > convincing TV documemtory about the Buteyko method a year or so ago. I know > that the amount which practitioners charge for teaching an exercise which is > probably dead easy to learn by yourself is nothing short of extortion, but > does the technique really not work? > >I guess what I’m really looking for is ‘real testimonials from real > people’ > >as I’m always inclined to disbelieve those posted on an advertisers site. > One of the signs of a fraud is if the people marketing the stuff rely > on testimonials. > If this is the case, then I would have thought that possibly 90% of all > marketed goods are fraudulent. You only have to look at any advert to see > that most rely on some sort of testimonial in order to improve sales. Very > little is sold on the basis of a ‘word of mouth’ recommendation from a > can’t believe anything that you see or read any more. I’m willing to bet > that when you see a TV ad depicting Madonna slurping down an ice cold bottle > of coke in a manner that would have you believe she lives off the stuff, the > truth of the matter is she wouldn’t even use the stuff as a mouthwash
Response:
I did try Frolov endogenous breathing. You breathe in through a chamber with a volume of about 250 cc and having a water resistance in it giving a water head of a few millimeters. This small pressure head might be quite critical for the results. See http://www.intellectbreathing.com/images/Frolov2.jpg You breathe in briskly and then out as slowly as possible so as to get to a respiration cycle of 20, 30 , 40 … secs. Owing to the chamber you are breathing with a raised carbon dioxide concentration. Movement of the diaphragm is emphasized, but also outward movement of the abdomen wall. Fantastic claims are made, f. i. walking around while hardly breathing at all. Oxygen is supposed to come from degradation of substances in the body (endogenous or endogenic state), free radicals are supposed to be mopped up. Life is supposed to be extended. In view of the Russian or even Stalinist background with a different culture and the apparent attempt to use supposedly Taoist principles the whole thing looks a bit fishy to me. It does not seem to be a reasonable way of training diaphragmatic breathing. We all know that almost anything can be touted for asthma with some degree of commercial but unscientific success. For a sample of ancient Taoist text on breathing, see "The primordial breath", ISBN 0-944558-00-3, vol. 1 "Chapter VIII The Secret of Discarding the Breath The secret of discarding the breath is as follows: In order to discard the breath, the breath and the body have to be harmonious and peaceful, the mind and the soul have to be at ease and smooth. It can be done regardless of sitting down or lying down. Harmonize the breath according to the "door" and the "window" (nose and mouth method.) Whether you are in bed or sitting on a chair, you look thoughtless, still and tranquil. Make the mind identical to the great void. Undertake then to shut off ten or twenty breathings. Make sure there is no wrangling between the breath and the will. After a long time, the breath will exit naturally through the hundreds of hair pores rather than be exhaled. There may still be 10-20% (of the normal) breathing. Harmonize (the breath) again till you can reach 100% of such held-up breathings. If you can hold more than one hundred breathings, you can increase (the number.) Persist in the practice whether walking, standing, sitting or lying down. Just keep doing it diligently. The hundred joints then open up and communicate, the complexion is enriched and made pleasant, the breath is purified and after a good bath. Then you do it whenever the body is not harmonious. You will feel refreshed and pleasant. HUANG T CHING (the Yellow Court Canon) states, "Respecting action, both the (upper) HUN and the (lower) P’O soul peaceful. (My) clean and pure soul appears and converses with me." That is it." Buteyko seems to have a similar and even more extreme basis – an irresponsible and cultish attempt to use poorly understood notions taken from other cultures. Don’t be duped by the mystification. Regards, Richard Friedel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hi, > I recieved a spam email this morning from someone who claims that by using a > device called the Frolov’s respiration training device and by doing 5 > daily exercises outlined in a book called ‘The 5 Secret Tibetan Rites of > Rejuvenation’, he had managed to turn his life around. He was 82 and his > picture made him look as if he was 40ish! Normally I just automatically bin > emails like this, but I decided to have a look at this one. It seems that > Frolov is another Russian Scientist who advocates that special breathing > techniques can help people with all kinds of illnesses including Asthma. I > guess these exercises are much the same as those taught in the Buteyko > Method (another clever dicky Russian Scientist:) > As a person who’s suffered from exercise induced bronchial asthma for 40 of > my 45 years, I’m wondering whether things such as special exercises and > breathing techniques can really help. The Frolov device cost’s 80usd which > seems a lot to me for a lump of plastic, but if it works I guess it would be > worth it! I’m continually dumbfounded by the fact that whenever I read this > newsgroup, there aren’t more people talking about these ‘alternative methods > of treatment’, and singing their praises if they really work. I’ve just > recently been on a years clinical trial at hospital, where they tried me on > all sorts of different medications (both tablet and inhaled), none of which > seemed any better than the next one. I’m now on 200mg of salmetorol and as > many puffs (normally 4/day but have been told I can increase to 8), of > Flixotide as I feel I need. I don’t feel my Asthma is completely under > control and have become very sceptical about conventual medicine. I also > have a very chesty ‘productive’ cough which occasionally pops up from time > to time thoughout the day. > I guess what I’m really looking for is ‘real testimonials from real people’ > as I’m always inclined to disbelieve those posted on an advertisers site. > Thanks > RayB
Response:
>Let’s not start yet another discussion with 10,000 posts on Buteyko >here. What’s done is done, and what has failed has failed.
What’s Buteyko? :)
Response:
>> Actually, Buteyko is a known scam. >Really? Where does your evidence for this come from? There was a fairly >convincing TV documemtory about the Buteyko method a year or so ago. I know >that the amount which practitioners charge for teaching an exercise which is >probably dead easy to learn by yourself is nothing short of extortion, but >does the technique really not work?
Ask the practitioners for actual scientific evidence that it works. Ask the practitioner why they have to misrepresent scientific research in order to support their claims. Ask the practitioner why the authors of the Brisbane trial had to _lie_ in order to get the paper published. Ask them why they have been unable to prove their basic theory – after 40+ years. Ask them why that had to go to a TV show instead of simply conducting clinical trials that would either prove or disprove the theory. One of the favorite tricks of the fraudsters is to go straight to the popular media (who are typically unable to evaluate their claims). Whenever you seen anybody going to popular media instead of publishing in peer-reviewed scientific journals – you can be sure that what they are selling cannot withstand the scrutiny of people who really do understand the subject. — "We are fighting today for security, for progress, and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all men, not only for one generation but for all generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world of ancient evils, ancient ills." Franklin Delano Rosevelt State of the Union Address – 1942
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> snip >I’m willing to bet > that when you see a TV ad depicting Madonna slurping down an ice cold > bottle > of coke in a manner that would have you believe she lives off the stuff, > the > truth of the matter is she wouldn’t even use the stuff as a mouthwash > You’ve just answered your own question. Why would you even think of > believing a "testimonial" about the undemonstrated effectiveness of any > unregulated product that is advertised as an asthma cure (not to mention all > the other scourges it is supposed to cure) that you received from an > anonymous poster on the internet?
If you read Ray Birch’s latest post, he (like so many other advocates of alternative med) has already made up his mind that the pharma companies are deliberately avoiding alternative remedies because they’re afraid of losing profits, blah-blah-blah. And that the doctors themselves won’t offer anything that doesn’t "conform to Western medicine," blah-blah-blah. This is conspiracy stuff out of sources like Gary Null. I am beginning to get the feeling that Ray is more of an advocate (looking to start an argument) than he is a patient looking for answers. I pointed him to the Google archive, he can search that and we can avoid starting yet another argument about Buteyko here. Let’s not start yet another discussion with 10,000 posts on Buteyko here. What’s done is done, and what has failed has failed. — Steven D. Litvintchouk
Response:
> snip >I’m willing to bet > that when you see a TV ad depicting Madonna slurping down an ice cold bottle > of coke in a manner that would have you believe she lives off the stuff, the > truth of the matter is she wouldn’t even use the stuff as a mouthwash
You’ve just answered your own question. Why would you even think of believing a "testimonial" about the undemonstrated effectiveness of any unregulated product that is advertised as an asthma cure (not to mention all the other scourges it is supposed to cure) that you received from an anonymous poster on the internet?
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> I was under the impression that newsgroups were available for anybody to > read from anywhere in the world. My hope was that those reading > alt.support.asthma would have at least some sort of an interest in the > condition itself. I find it difficult to believe that of the thousands > (possibly millions) of people reading this, there aren’t one or two who have > tried some of ‘alternative method’, and can give an unbiased account on what > it’s done for them.
Have you heard of Google? It’s an archive of all past posts to alt.support.asthma. There have been many posts on alternative remedies. You can search for them. Butekyo has been discussed MANY MANY times. You don’t need to reinvent the wheel on this, Ray. I suffer from both chronic sinusitis and asthmatic bronchitis. Let me list the alternative remedies that did NOT work for me one bit: – Pycnogenol (proanthyocyanidin) – N-Acetyl Cysteine capsules – Echinacea – Papaya enzyme tablets – Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) I hope that others will follow my example and list things that DIDN’T work, as a cautionary note for others. > I’ve read about the clinical trials done on the Buteyko method in Australia. > I haven’t read about any which have taken place since. Surely one of the > reasons why the medical profession is so unwilling to fully investigate > these so called ‘wonder cures’, is down to the fact that the drugs companies > will lose a vast fortune if they find that they really do work?
First of all, most medical research in this country is done by universities and teaching hospitals, not drug companies. You can search MedlinePlus, an archive of papers from medical journals, and you will see that alternative remedies HAVE been researched and experimented with. But so far, there is NOTHING that has proven safe and effective for asthma other than what mainstream medical doctors have already told you about. Second, the drug companies themselves are now marketing alternative remedies themselves: vitamins, herbs, etc. For example, you can find many herbal products under the well-known Centrum brand. Third, it’s a free marketplace. Anyone who has a real remedy that works, will either make a lot of money. Or (if they’re more interested in helping people) will become world-famous, be offered lectureships and posts at major hospitals and universities, etc. > I’m willing > to guess that another reason is down to the vanity which the medical > profession usually displays in ‘poo pooing’ anything which doesn’t conform > to conventional western medicine.
Western medicine is scientific. Science requires an objective hypothesis, a controlled experiment, and extensive testing. In fact, China and the Third World have embraced the scientific method now. Why should we in America, who pioneered so many advances based on it, want to give it up? Do you really think that the medical profession wouldn’t want to help you get better if they could? Ask your own doctors whether they "poo poo" something that looks promising but wasn’t developed in the Western world. Did they tell you that? It’s beginning to sound to me like you’ve already made up your mind. What convinced you that alternative medicine has so much to offer? What made you into such an advocate??? — Steven D. Litvintchouk
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> Forgive me, > but it sounds like you have a kind of double standard here. > You went for a controlled trial of conventional medicine.
I’m afraid I’ve probably mislead people here. The trial wasn’t really anything to do with the medicines themselves, it’s just that whilst I was undergoing the tests, the doctor decided to test me on a few different ones, (Singulair, INTAL etc) > Now you want to try all sorts of alternative remedies based on a few > testimonials??
I was under the impression that newsgroups were available for anybody to read from anywhere in the world. My hope was that those reading alt.support.asthma would have at least some sort of an interest in the condition itself. I find it difficult to believe that of the thousands (possibly millions) of people reading this, there aren’t one or two who have tried some of ‘alternative method’, and can give an unbiased account on what it’s done for them. (Yes I realise that what works for some won’t necessarily work for others). > Second, wouldn’t it make sense to ask whether there have been any > controlled trials of alternative remedies? > The fact that a remedy is "alternative" doesn’t mean it shouldn’t have > been rigorously tested for safety, at the very least, and effectiveness > if at all possible.
I’ve read about the clinical trials done on the Buteyko method in Australia. I haven’t read about any which have taken place since. Surely one of the reasons why the medical profession is so unwilling to fully investigate these so called ‘wonder cures’, is down to the fact that the drugs companies will lose a vast fortune if they find that they really do work? I’m willing to guess that another reason is down to the vanity which the medical profession usually displays in ‘poo pooing’ anything which doesn’t conform to conventional western medicine. RayB
Response:
> > Actually, Buteyko is a known scam. > Really? Where does your evidence for this come from? There was a fairly > convincing TV documemtory about the Buteyko method a year or so ago. I know > that the amount which practitioners charge for teaching an exercise which is > probably dead easy to learn by yourself is nothing short of extortion, but > does the technique really not work?
First, Ray, let me say how much I sympathize with you. My asthma is out of control and the doctors cannot help me because I have a chronic sinus infection that no one has been able to cure. But I recognize there’s no reason for me to go chasing after false hopes in alternative medicine, where no such hope exists. All doctors want their patients to get better. If there were real effective remedies for asthma out there, those remedies would be widely known and used. There are no "secret miracle treatments" for asthma. None. Believe me. The trick with a chronic illness like asthma, is to find a way to accept it and live with it. I’ve been to psychotherapists, and I’m still working on it. The right questions to ask are: 1. Is there any evidence that the technique works? 2. What is the technique based on? When Buteyko did his original research, we knew far less about the mechanisms of asthma than we do today. Today, we know that asthma is a chronic inflammation in the airways. Breathing exercises cannot do anything about that chronic inflammation. > >I guess what I’m really looking for is ‘real testimonials from real > people’ > >as I’m always inclined to disbelieve those posted on an advertisers site. > One of the signs of a fraud is if the people marketing the stuff rely > on testimonials. > If this is the case, then I would have thought that possibly 90% of all > marketed goods are fraudulent….
No. Medicine is in a kind of special case. Because the Food & Drug Administration requires that a medicine be scientifically proven to be safe and effective for specific claimed illnesses, before it is allowed to be advertised and sold in the U.S. Consumer goods typically aren’t like that. If you have a medicine that cannot provably meet the FDA standard for safety and effectiveness, then you put a disclaimer on it like "This product is not intended to prevent, treat or cure any disease." And you rely on testimonials and word of mouth to sell it. — Steven D. Litvintchouk
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > As a person who’s suffered from exercise induced bronchial asthma for 40 of > my 45 years, I’m wondering whether things such as special exercises and > breathing techniques can really help. The Frolov device cost’s 80usd which > seems a lot to me for a lump of plastic, but if it works I guess it would be > worth it! I’m continually dumbfounded by the fact that whenever I read this > newsgroup, there aren’t more people talking about these ‘alternative methods > of treatment’, and singing their praises if they really work. I’ve just > recently been on a years clinical trial at hospital, where they tried me on > all sorts of different medications (both tablet and inhaled), none of which > seemed any better than the next one. I’m now on 200mg of salmetorol and as > many puffs (normally 4/day but have been told I can increase to 8), of > Flixotide as I feel I need. I don’t feel my Asthma is completely under > control and have become very sceptical about conventual medicine. I also > have a very chesty ‘productive’ cough which occasionally pops up from time > to time thoughout the day. > I guess what I’m really looking for is ‘real testimonials from real people’ > as I’m always inclined to disbelieve those posted on an advertisers site.
Forgive me, but it sounds like you have a kind of double standard here. You went for a controlled trial of conventional medicine. Now you want to try all sorts of alternative remedies based on a few testimonials?? First, the failure of conventional medicine to help everyone, doesn’t make alternative medicine look any better. Alternative medicines have to stand on their own merits. Second, wouldn’t it make sense to ask whether there have been any controlled trials of alternative remedies? The fact that a remedy is "alternative" doesn’t mean it shouldn’t have been rigorously tested for safety, at the very least, and effectiveness if at all possible. — Steven D. Litvintchouk
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> Actually, Buteyko is a known scam.
Really? Where does your evidence for this come from? There was a fairly convincing TV documemtory about the Buteyko method a year or so ago. I know that the amount which practitioners charge for teaching an exercise which is probably dead easy to learn by yourself is nothing short of extortion, but does the technique really not work? >I guess what I’m really looking for is ‘real testimonials from real people’ >as I’m always inclined to disbelieve those posted on an advertisers site. > One of the signs of a fraud is if the people marketing the stuff rely > on testimonials.
If this is the case, then I would have thought that possibly 90% of all marketed goods are fraudulent. You only have to look at any advert to see that most rely on some sort of testimonial in order to improve sales. Very little is sold on the basis of a ‘word of mouth’ recommendation from a can’t believe anything that you see or read any more. I’m willing to bet that when you see a TV ad depicting Madonna slurping down an ice cold bottle of coke in a manner that would have you believe she lives off the stuff, the truth of the matter is she wouldn’t even use the stuff as a mouthwash
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>Hi, >I recieved a spam email this morning from someone who claims that by using a >device called the Frolov’s respiration training device and by doing 5 >daily exercises outlined in a book called ‘The 5 Secret Tibetan Rites of >Rejuvenation’, he had managed to turn his life around. He was 82 and his >picture made him look as if he was 40ish! Normally I just automatically bin >emails like this, but I decided to have a look at this one. It seems that >Frolov is another Russian Scientist who advocates that special breathing >techniques can help people with all kinds of illnesses including Asthma. I >guess these exercises are much the same as those taught in the Buteyko >Method (another clever dicky Russian Scientist:)
Actually, Buteyko is a known scam. >I guess what I’m really looking for is ‘real testimonials from real people’ >as I’m always inclined to disbelieve those posted on an advertisers site.
One of the signs of a fraud is if the people marketing the stuff rely on testimonials. — "We are fighting today for security, for progress, and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all men, not only for one generation but for all generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world of ancient evils, ancient ills." Franklin Delano Rosevelt State of the Union Address – 1942
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> Hi, > …… >I’m continually dumbfounded by the fact that whenever I read this > newsgroup, there aren’t more people talking about these ‘alternative methods > of treatment’, and singing their praises if they really work. > …..
I believe that you have just solved your own puzzlement with your last four words above. pavane
Response:
Hi, I recieved a spam email this morning from someone who claims that by using a device called the Frolov’s respiration training device and by doing 5 daily exercises outlined in a book called ‘The 5 Secret Tibetan Rites of Rejuvenation’, he had managed to turn his life around. He was 82 and his picture made him look as if he was 40ish! Normally I just automatically bin emails like this, but I decided to have a look at this one. It seems that Frolov is another Russian Scientist who advocates that special breathing techniques can help people with all kinds of illnesses including Asthma. I guess these exercises are much the same as those taught in the Buteyko Method (another clever dicky Russian Scientist:) As a person who’s suffered from exercise induced bronchial asthma for 40 of my 45 years, I’m wondering whether things such as special exercises and breathing techniques can really help. The Frolov device cost’s 80usd which seems a lot to me for a lump of plastic, but if it works I guess it would be worth it! I’m continually dumbfounded by the fact that whenever I read this newsgroup, there aren’t more people talking about these ‘alternative methods of treatment’, and singing their praises if they really work. I’ve just recently been on a years clinical trial at hospital, where they tried me on all sorts of different medications (both tablet and inhaled), none of which seemed any better than the next one. I’m now on 200mg of salmetorol and as many puffs (normally 4/day but have been told I can increase to 8), of Flixotide as I feel I need. I don’t feel my Asthma is completely under control and have become very sceptical about conventual medicine. I also have a very chesty ‘productive’ cough which occasionally pops up from time to time thoughout the day. I guess what I’m really looking for is ‘real testimonials from real people’ as I’m always inclined to disbelieve those posted on an advertisers site. Thanks RayB
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