Does someone know about Kaptchuk?
Question:
>Your analogies might be more credible if they were more accurate.
LOL, perhaps. Today has taken its toll on me in the science history department. >I am partially disabled by my chronic asthmatic bronchitis. >But I don’t let that sway me into trying quackery.
I believe you. Bob
Response:
>Then you are really going to hate me for this. :-) >The Egyptians determined that the world was round almost 3000 years >ago. The Greeks calculated the earth’s circumference (with and got >surprisingly close to the right number considering the crudity of >their measuring instruments) sometime around 200 BC.
Just munching on some humble pie here…Thank you once again. Bob
Response:
> >I consider personal anecdotal experience to be subsumed under >"psychological factors" and under "ignorance of probability and >statistics." > Had you lived back in Galileo’s day, you would have fought hard for > the theory that the world was flat; until proven otherwise….
If you think that, then you obviously don’t know me very well. And your knowledge of the history of science is faulty. Even Ptolemy knew that the earth was round, thousands of years ago. Eratosthenes had even calculated the circumference of the earth to within a few percent of the modern accepted figure. What was not accepted in Galileo’s day, was that the Earth revolved about the Sun rather than the reverse. Your analogies might be more credible if they were more accurate. >If I start playing the violin, and my illness improves, then for me to >conclude that violin-playing improved my illness is an unwarranted >inference….. >And for me to recommend to others with that illness that they will get >better if they start playing the violin, is even less warranted. > Once you improved, I would imagine you would be hard-pressed to > contain your new predilection for the violin.
Your imagination is faulty. You don’t know me very well. I am partially disabled by my chronic asthmatic bronchitis. But I don’t let that sway me into trying quackery. — Steven D. Litvintchouk
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> The Greeks calculated the earth’s circumference (with and got > surprisingly close to the right number considering the crudity of > their measuring instruments) sometime around 200 BC.
Eratosthenes was the first to do the calculation. When Columbus proposed to Queen Isabella that he could sail to India by sailing westward around the world, he fudged his calculations with an assumption for a much smaller circumference than Eratosthenes had computed (and that we now know to be about 25,000 miles). Had the Americas not existed, Columbus would never have made it all the way to India. — Steven D. Litvintchouk
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Years of discussing "alternative" medicine with friends, relatives, and >folks on this NG, have convinced me that most folks who believe >fervently in alternative medicine do so out of psychological, emotional, >ideological, religious, and other non-rational factors. (As well as >ignorance of probability and statistics.) Quoting scientific studies >usually doesn’t work, because that approach doesn’t address these >non-rational factors. > You forgot one thing Steven; experience. That seemingly irrational > variable that creeps into our existence from time to time; that which > has no good, clear answer.
I didn’t forget. I consider personal anecdotal experience to be subsumed under "psychological factors" and under "ignorance of probability and statistics." If I start playing the violin, and my illness improves, then for me to conclude that violin-playing improved my illness is an unwarranted inference. And for me to recommend to others with that illness that they will get better if they start playing the violin, is even less warranted. — Steven D. Litvintchouk
Response:
>I consider personal anecdotal experience to be subsumed under >"psychological factors" and under "ignorance of probability and >statistics."
Had you lived back in Galileo’s day, you would have fought hard for the theory that the world was flat; until proven otherwise. That is a comfortable place to be, because you have many people around you who believe the same thing and support the same theory. >If I start playing the violin, and my illness improves, then for me to >conclude that violin-playing improved my illness is an unwarranted >inference.
Maybe, maybe not. If I were you, I would continue playing though. >And for me to recommend to others with that illness that they will get >better if they start playing the violin, is even less warranted.
Once you improved, I would imagine you would be hard-pressed to contain your new predilection for the violin. Of course, this is what chiropractors did. They saw results, and surmised that all things that could go wrong with the body must have their root causes in neurological interference. We know this is not the case. Bob
Response:
>Taking parts of one piece of equipments in order to bring another >online.
Very familiar with this!
Response:
>Had you lived back in Galileo’s day, you would have fought hard for >the theory that the world was flat; until proven otherwise. That is a >comfortable place to be, because you have many people around you who >believe the same thing and support the same theory.
Actually it would have been the exact opposite. In Galileo’s day – educated people knew that the world was a sphere. — "We are fighting today for security, for progress, and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all men, not only for one generation but for all generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world of ancient evils, ancient ills." Franklin Delano Rosevelt State of the Union Address – 1942
Response:
>>Taking parts of one piece of equipments in order to bring another >online. >Very familiar with this!
The funny thing is that the practice was banned by president Reagan who recognized that it created a false picture of readiness. (One of the reasons the ‘Reagan’ defense build up did not produce fast results was that nobody knew just how bad things really were because of this practice.) — "We are fighting today for security, for progress, and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all men, not only for one generation but for all generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world of ancient evils, ancient ills." Franklin Delano Rosevelt State of the Union Address – 1942
Response:
>>Had you lived back in Galileo’s day, you would have fought hard for >the theory that the world was flat; until proven otherwise. That is a >comfortable place to be, because you have many people around you who >believe the same thing and support the same theory. >Actually it would have been the exact opposite. In Galileo’s day – >educated people knew that the world was a sphere.
Ok, so I’m 2000 years off…LOL One must be quite precise, must one. Thank you Bob
Response:
>>Actually it would have been the exact opposite. In Galileo’s day – >educated people knew that the world was a sphere. >Ok, so I’m 2000 years off…LOL >One must be quite precise, must one.
Then you are really going to hate me for this. :-) The Egyptians determined that the world was round almost 3000 years ago. The Greeks calculated the earth’s circumference (with and got surprisingly close to the right number considering the crudity of their measuring instruments) sometime around 200 BC. — "We are fighting today for security, for progress, and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all men, not only for one generation but for all generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world of ancient evils, ancient ills." Franklin Delano Rosevelt State of the Union Address – 1942
Response:
>I think that you missed my point. You cannot assume that a positive >experience trying something means that it is a good idea.
I didn’t miss your point Colin. I just don’t get the opportunity everyday to joke about lap-loading my main gun. You have very good intentions and I respect that, as you know. Bob
Response:
I don’t expect anything "unexpected" to happen in my case. It hasn’t in almost 10 years. If I were to become euphoric, I would suspect extreme Sob, not a "cure".
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Years of discussing "alternative" medicine with friends, relatives, and >folks on this NG, have convinced me that most folks who believe >fervently in alternative medicine do so out of psychological, emotional, >ideological, religious, and other non-rational factors. (As well as >ignorance of probability and statistics.) Quoting scientific studies >usually doesn’t work, because that approach doesn’t address these >non-rational factors. > You forgot one thing Steven; experience. That seemingly irrational > variable that creeps into our existence from time to time; that which > has no good, clear answer. > Bob
Response:
>You forgot one thing Steven; experience. That seemingly irrational >variable that creeps into our existence from time to time; that which >has no good, clear answer.
One of the major lessons from my military career (active and reserves) is that the lessons you learn from experience are not necessarily the right ones. "If you do something stupid and it works – you are not a genius – you are merely stupid and lucky." — "We are fighting today for security, for progress, and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all men, not only for one generation but for all generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world of ancient evils, ancient ills." Franklin Delano Rosevelt State of the Union Address – 1942
Response:
>One of the major lessons from my military career (active and reserves) >is that the lessons you learn from experience are not necessarily the >right ones.
Would you please give an example.I go by the old saying experience is the best teacher.My military career also covers both active and reserve. Their were things I did not like but I would not consider them bad lessons.
Response:
>"If you do something stupid and it works – you are not a genius – you >are merely stupid and lucky."
If you do something "stupid" and it works, maybe it’s not so stupid. Especially if the "stupid" thing keeps working. I like that kind of luck. Bob
Response:
>>One of the major lessons from my military career (active and reserves) >is that the lessons you learn from experience are not necessarily the >right ones. >Would you please give an example.I go >by the old saying experience is the best teacher.My military career also covers >both active and reserve. Their were things >I did not like but I would not consider them >bad lessons.
Here are a few: Relying on a civilian GPS unit. ‘Key starting’ a tank with dead batteries. ‘Lap loading’ main gun ammunition. Taking parts of one piece of equipments in order to bring another online. Just a few off the top of my head. — "We are fighting today for security, for progress, and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all men, not only for one generation but for all generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world of ancient evils, ancient ills." Franklin Delano Rosevelt State of the Union Address – 1942
Response:
>>"If you do something stupid and it works – you are not a genius – you >are merely stupid and lucky." >If you do something "stupid" and it works, maybe it’s not so stupid. >Especially if the "stupid" thing keeps working. I like that kind of >luck.
Until the reason it is stupid comes back to haunt you. — "We are fighting today for security, for progress, and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all men, not only for one generation but for all generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world of ancient evils, ancient ills." Franklin Delano Rosevelt State of the Union Address – 1942
Response:
>Until the reason it is stupid comes back to haunt you.
I’ll be sure to remember that next time I’m tempted to lap load my main gun, key start my dead tank, take some supplements, or get my neck adjusted. Bob
Response:
>>Until the reason it is stupid comes back to haunt you. >I’ll be sure to remember that next time I’m tempted to lap load my >main gun, key start my dead tank, take some supplements, or get my >neck adjusted.
I think that you missed my point. You cannot assume that a positive experience trying something means that it is a good idea. — "We are fighting today for security, for progress, and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all men, not only for one generation but for all generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world of ancient evils, ancient ills." Franklin Delano Rosevelt State of the Union Address – 1942
Response:
My mother, who reads the Wall Street Journal, has decided that I should be able to "will" myself away from my asthma symptoms. The article that has convinced her that my problem should be correctable by "thinking good thoughts" ran within the last week in the Science Journal portion by Sharon Begley titled "In the Placebo Debate, New Support for Role of the Brain in Healing". Anyone have any good comeback studies? The statement "Over the years, researchers have found that believing you will be cured can lower blood pressure, lift depression, mitigate asthma and allergies, ease pain including angina, and stop gastric reflux" is the principal statement that started this whole debate. I realize that Dr Kaptchuk is Alternative Medicine, but you know how outsiders to this illness think it is all in your head. Thanks for your help everyone.
Response:
> My mother, who reads the Wall Street Journal, has decided that I should be > able to "will" myself away from my asthma symptoms. The article that has > convinced her that my problem should be correctable by "thinking good > thoughts" ran within the last week in the Science Journal portion by Sharon > Begley titled "In the Placebo Debate, New Support for Role of the Brain in > Healing". Anyone have any good comeback studies?
If your mom is like my dad in this regard, I don’t think that comeback studies are what are needed here. Our parents desperately want to believe that there is nothing wrong with us that a little will power won’t fix. (They especially don’t want their children to be sicker than they are.) Denial is a common response to serious chronic illness (or with a relative of someone with a chronic illness), and it may not be mitigated by rational argument. What you need is to find a way to tell your mother that you are appreciative of her advice as always, but that you are under care of good physicians and that you intend to go with the diagnosis and treatment recommendations of your doctors. Perhaps you should promise to discuss this Wall Street Journal article with your doctor, the next time you see him. If you continue to have problems dealing with your mom, then perhaps counseling would help. > I realize that Dr Kaptchuk is Alternative > Medicine, but you know how outsiders to this illness think it is all in your > head.
Years of discussing "alternative" medicine with friends, relatives, and folks on this NG, have convinced me that most folks who believe fervently in alternative medicine do so out of psychological, emotional, ideological, religious, and other non-rational factors. (As well as ignorance of probability and statistics.) Quoting scientific studies usually doesn’t work, because that approach doesn’t address these non-rational factors. — Steven D. Litvintchouk
Response:
>Years of discussing "alternative" medicine with friends, relatives, and >folks on this NG, have convinced me that most folks who believe >fervently in alternative medicine do so out of psychological, emotional, >ideological, religious, and other non-rational factors. (As well as >ignorance of probability and statistics.) Quoting scientific studies >usually doesn’t work, because that approach doesn’t address these >non-rational factors.
You forgot one thing Steven; experience. That seemingly irrational variable that creeps into our existence from time to time; that which has no good, clear answer. Bob
Response:
Steven, You are undoubtedly right. Thanks for the suggestion. Some battles aren’t worth fighting.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My mother, who reads the Wall Street Journal, has decided that I should be > able to "will" myself away from my asthma symptoms. The article that has > convinced her that my problem should be correctable by "thinking good > thoughts" ran within the last week in the Science Journal portion by Sharon > Begley titled "In the Placebo Debate, New Support for Role of the Brain in > Healing". Anyone have any good comeback studies? > If your mom is like my dad in this regard, I don’t think that comeback > studies are what are needed here. > Our parents desperately want to believe that there is nothing wrong with > us that a little will power won’t fix. (They especially don’t want > their children to be sicker than they are.) Denial is a common response > to serious chronic illness (or with a relative of someone with a chronic > illness), and it may not be mitigated by rational argument. > What you need is to find a way to tell your mother that you are > appreciative of her advice as always, but that you are under care of > good physicians and that you intend to go with the diagnosis and > treatment recommendations of your doctors. Perhaps you should promise > to discuss this Wall Street Journal article with your doctor, the next > time you see him. > If you continue to have problems dealing with your mom, then perhaps > counseling would help. > I realize that Dr Kaptchuk is Alternative > Medicine, but you know how outsiders to this illness think it is all in your > head. > Years of discussing "alternative" medicine with friends, relatives, and > folks on this NG, have convinced me that most folks who believe > fervently in alternative medicine do so out of psychological, emotional, > ideological, religious, and other non-rational factors. (As well as > ignorance of probability and statistics.) Quoting scientific studies > usually doesn’t work, because that approach doesn’t address these > non-rational factors. > — > Steven D. Litvintchouk
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