Buteyko: Support for those interested.
Question:
> YooHoo! Over here! Have I got your attention? Try
Alt.Support.Asthma.Buteyko ….. that group is interested. The only mention I have seen here is to tell people interested in it to go there or those pushing it to go away. > Now, that being said, I would suspect that protocol dictates that it
needs to be there since it’s discussion here is "off topic" here and pretty much off limits, unless you happen to like being filtered everywhere you go. > Just my two cents worth.
Problem is that apparently very few news servers carry alt.support.asthma.buteyko , so a message posted there will to a large extent fall on blind eyes/deaf ears. I can’t get alt.support.asthma.buteyko . This newsgroup is alt.support.asthma, not alt.proven-remedies.asthma or alt.support.asthma.proven-remedies, so any report of Buteyko (or Traditional Chinese Medicine, Ayurveda, homeopathy, etc) being helpful for asthma ought to be on-topic here. This is of course not to be taken as an endorsement for any opinion, pro or con, on Buteyko. But somebody wanting to discuss Buteyko might do better in that Yahoo emailing list referred to by Peter Kolb, perhaps less hostility there.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> YooHoo! Over here! Have I got your attention? Try > Alt.Support.Asthma.Buteyko ….. that group is interested. The only mention > I have seen here is to tell people interested in it to go there or those > pushing it to go away. > Now, that being said, I would suspect that protocol dictates that it > needs to be there since it’s discussion here is "off topic" here and pretty > much off limits, unless you happen to like being filtered everywhere you go. > Just my two cents worth. > Problem is that apparently very few news servers carry > alt.support.asthma.buteyko , so a message posted there will to a large extent > fall on blind eyes/deaf ears. I can’t get alt.support.asthma.buteyko . > This newsgroup is alt.support.asthma, not alt.proven-remedies.asthma or > alt.support.asthma.proven-remedies, so any report of Buteyko (or Traditional > Chinese Medicine, Ayurveda, homeopathy, etc) being helpful for asthma ought to > be on-topic here. This is of course not to be taken as an endorsement for any > opinion, pro or con, on Buteyko.
Heaven forbid that we should limit support to proven treatments, when there is such a wealth of unproven fads and profit-making nostrums to be recommended. While these are not necessarily "off topic" per se, you will continue to see vigorous refutation of quackery. > But somebody wanting to discuss Buteyko might do better in that Yahoo emailing > list referred to by Peter Kolb, perhaps less hostility there.
Less honesty as well.
Response:
Joy, Generally, couldn’t all this commotion be looked upon as a useful part of health education, which might be useful later in other situations? Specifically, a 54 year old friend tells me how he is able to curb asthmatic episodes by being conscious of what he calls hyperventilation. In a choir where he sings it may be that some person near him uses a perfume, a trigger for him, but he reduces the respiration rate and has hardly any trouble. Another asthmatic friend in the choir of his is not, like my friend, embarrassed by using a reliever spray in public and apparently has more trouble with his condition. An anesthetist, a chance acquaintance of my friend, thinks this method of defusing asthma is a good idea – in the particular case, at least. Question is whether the technique is really doing any good in the long run. Some docs at least would probably recommend concentrating all one’s efforts on asthma drugs, on scrupulously avoiding triggers, on exercise etc. and not "cheating" in this way. A problem would seem to be that people would out of ignorance try out such exercises as a remedy for bronchitis or pneumonia, particularly as some "recipes" for the method come from ignorant fanatics. We all know of the importance of peakflow measurements and the amount of trouble educating people in this way. A tiny shift in attitudes might have disastrous consequences. Seems that this matter could be discretely discussed somewhere and that a "no-name" description by an orthodox physician of such exercises could be put on the Net in a handy form for people to take to their doc to get his opinion. Then they could possibly do the exercises with a properly qualified physio and not with self-styled healers without any mainstream medical training behind them. Possibly, also, an advanced yoga technique such as jalandhara bandha or ujjayi might be done with proper supervision. Presently the mindless antics of Peter Kolb are an obstacle to any humane application of this technique which might prove reasonably safe if done under doctor’s orders and stripped of all ideology. These ongoing antics seem likely keep the technique a part of the lunatic fringe of healthcare and sabotage any discussion.
Response:
Richard, I agree with you completely.Very well stated. My problem is that I do see evidence that if you can control your breathing, you may indeed help your situation. I see the But* movement with their ridiculous claims as delaying the general use of various breathing techniques because they look like such nutcases to the regular medical community. They claim it works for many too many illnesses, they rely on such old outdated studies (Dacosta’s syndrome is a discarded diagnosis now that we have echo imaging) and refuse to acknowledge their information has been discarded, they imply that asthma is caused by your mental state (the STRESSORS), and they don’t err on the side of safety when they insist that it works for everyone and people who use their inhalers are somehow weak. It isn’t furthermore clear to me that it is the only method or even the best method. Of course, it isn’t a cure, but breathing techniques that prove useful can be added to the other more traditional methods of asthma drugs, avoiding triggers, etc. At the very least, it seems to me that it will improve the perception of quality of life for those it helps. The sad fact is that they are managing to delay useful discussions.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Joy, > Generally, couldn’t all this commotion be looked upon as a useful part > of health education, which might be useful later in other situations? > Specifically, a 54 year old friend tells me how he is able to curb > asthmatic episodes by being conscious of what he calls hyperventilation. > In a choir where he sings it may be that some person near him uses a > perfume, a trigger for him, but he reduces the respiration rate and has > hardly any trouble. Another asthmatic friend in the choir of his is > not, like my friend, embarrassed by using a reliever spray in public and > apparently has more trouble with his condition. An anesthetist, a chance > acquaintance of my friend, thinks this method of defusing asthma is a > good idea – in the particular case, at least. > Question is whether the technique is really doing any good in the long > run. Some docs at least would probably recommend concentrating all one’s > efforts on asthma drugs, on scrupulously avoiding triggers, on exercise > etc. and not "cheating" in this way. A problem would seem to be that > people would out of ignorance try out such exercises as a remedy for > bronchitis or pneumonia, particularly as some "recipes" for the method > come from ignorant fanatics. We all know of the importance of peakflow > measurements and the amount of trouble educating people in this way. A > tiny shift in attitudes might have disastrous consequences. > Seems that this matter could be discretely discussed somewhere and that > a "no-name" description by an orthodox physician of such exercises could > be put on the Net in a handy form for people to take to their doc to get > his opinion. Then they could possibly do the exercises with a properly > qualified physio and not with self-styled healers without any mainstream > medical training behind them. Possibly, also, an advanced yoga technique > such as jalandhara bandha or ujjayi might be done with proper > supervision. > Presently the mindless antics of Peter Kolb are an obstacle to any > humane application of this technique which might prove reasonably safe > if done under doctor’s orders and stripped of all ideology. These > ongoing antics seem likely keep the technique a part of the lunatic > fringe of healthcare and sabotage any discussion.
Response:
> Question is whether the technique is really doing any good in the long > run. Some docs at least would probably recommend concentrating all one’s > efforts on asthma drugs, on scrupulously avoiding triggers, on exercise > etc. and not "cheating" in this way. A problem would seem to be that > people would out of ignorance try out such exercises as a remedy for > bronchitis or pneumonia, particularly as some "recipes" for the method > come from ignorant fanatics. We all know of the importance of peakflow > measurements and the amount of trouble educating people in this way. A > tiny shift in attitudes might have disastrous consequences.
there is no question as a technique for controlling the initial stages of mild asthma attacks breath control is useful…I’ve never heard anyone say otherwise…it might not be the best choice in all circumstances…but there is no problem with it but dealing with symptoms is nothing to do with treating the underlying medical condition…so it’s not a remedy for anything…it’s just a way of coping with symptoms breath control as a treatment for asthma is pretty much a non- starter…for all their efforts the B*teyko cultists can’t back up their claims…and so far I’ve not heard any direct claims for any other breath control treatment regarding the treatment of asthma as a medical condition (rather than simply treating the symptoms of asthma as if they were all there is) we have to be able to keep the separation between treating asthma symptoms and treating asthma…too many people don’t fully understand the distinction and that’s something the cultists rely on — eric www.ericjarvis.co.uk "I am a man of many parts, unfortunately most of them are no longer in stock"
Response:
Peter, The authors of the publications you quote have moved ON and now say their past "evidence" doesn’t support the conclusions of hyperventilation you claim after continuing studies. You actually have your own newsgroup and you need to post there because your method is still considered "alternative". If you continue to post here, you may find the favor is returned. It certainly doesn’t impress me if you quote a bunch of Holistic Doctors. 250 plus worldwide people isn’t anything if you have been at this for 6 to 7 years as you state. So, don’t wreck a good thing. I am not totally adverse to your cause YET.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> If you are sick and tired of hearing about Buteyko, why are you > reading this? Go away! > For the others who want to know more, there is a very good support > group which you can access via a link on our web site: > http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm > There is also an archive attached to the support group which you can > browse. > About a year ago when I last looked at the Yahoo information page, > there were around 250 people on this group. It has probably grown > since then. > Peter Kolb > Biomedical Engineer > Free information provided by grateful ex-asthmatics > http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm
Response:
A little more homework on respiration and on quackery may be a good thing. The majority here will hopefully however be sensible enough to ignore this posting completely as being superfluous and be generous enough to accept my apologies for posting so much. The basis of the Buteyko stuff is that asthmatics hyperventilate and that this produces a carbon dioxide deficiency. According to modern research (see Joy’s posts) this is not the case. See Dr. William Gardner (2000) "This study therefore confirmed that the majority of both normal subjects and mild asthmatics when measured uninvasively during activities of daily living had end-tidal PCO2 values well below the accepted lower limit of 35mmHg and within the range at which symptoms of hypocapnia could occur." (The range of end tidal PCO2…., http://www.ohiou.edu/isarp/conf_00/post_9.htm) I. e. there is no difference here between asthmatics and normal persons. They both have less carbon dioxide in their blood in certain circumstances. Breathing retraining either according to Buteyko or to more conventional methods does not change PCO2, see "The respiratory reeducation caused no change in PetCO2; however, it caused a slower respiratory frequency (p<0.01)" (http://www.ohiou.edu/isarp/conf_01/poster_7_01.htm) and trials of Buteyko. (A scrutiny of this material will show that some subtle points remain to be elucidated, but this will be beyond a Buteykoist’s understanding so that they are irrelevant). The Kolb Buteyko site sports a Buteykoist’s bible or sacred text on http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/biochem.htm describing the "The disease of deep respiration" and "ICDR method" and ending up with 36 references to Russian publications from the pre-Gorbatschev, communist era. Nobody knows what ICDR means. The appeal of this pretentious and at least completely outdated pseudo-scientific text is supposed to be strong that he pleads for a charity status for the undertaking (APPEAL FOR PROFESSOR BUTEYKO Some of you, whose lives have forever been changed by the Buteyko method, have asked what you could do for Professor Buteyko. Please read about the conditions he lives in by reading Professor Buteyko Today. Here you will find out how you can help him. PLEASE HELP OTHER ASTHMA SUFFERERS We invite anyone who has benefited from the information provided by this WEB site, to help promote it. You will probably be discussing this with other asthmatics anyway. But you could do even more without too much bother and without any cost. You could send a note to your local talk-back station and point out that a NET search on "Buteyko" could help the one in fourteen asthmatics listening to their station. You could also point and click on our Poster, print it out and after arranging the tear-away strips along the bottom margin, pin it to the notice boards at your local library and supermarket. On behalf of those asthmatics and their desperate parents who will have been reached by your efforts, thanks for taking the trouble!) Or in plain English: your story’s so touching it sounds just like a lie. Peter Kolb is a simple con trickster using a physiological maneuver to demonstrate some sort of competence and feign real knowledge, conspiracy theory, charges that Buteykoians are being victimized and cognitive dissonance (lies about breathing) to sabotage patient’s understandings with docs – see Buteyko’s stuff about "deep respiration". Postings by "Secret Squirrel" reveal that Kolb’s advice to parents with an unruly child is to lock the child (like his own) in the bathroom in the dark overnight. Significantly, Peter Kolb’s own child developed asthma and was a mouth breather, the asthma being cured in a few minutes years later by a Buteyko healer. Kolb will tell you that any disease (including diabetes) involving acute or subtle (or imagined?) overbreathing is curable by his exercises. If these fail, then you must go to Russia and be treated there. Anyone still in doubt about Kolb’s undertaking should get a doc’s opinion. Regards, Richard Friedel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > If you are sick and tired of hearing about Buteyko, why are you > reading this? Go away! > For the others who want to know more, there is a very good support > group which you can access via a link on our web site: > http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm > There is also an archive attached to the support group which you can > browse. > About a year ago when I last looked at the Yahoo information page, > there were around 250 people on this group. It has probably grown > since then. > Peter Kolb > Biomedical Engineer > Free information provided by grateful ex-asthmatics > http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm
Response:
>If you are sick and tired of hearing about Buteyko, why are you >reading this? Go away!
Because we enjoy catching you lying? "It’s not American foreign policy, or the plight of the Palestinians, or America’s longstanding support for Israel. A group of people with money and weaponry have simply decided that we, as a civilization, are unfit to live, and want, eventally, to exterminate us." ‘Christian Century’ magazine
Response:
> If you are sick and tired of hearing about Buteyko, why are you > reading this? Go away!
No, _you_ go away–you have a discussion group devoted to your nonsense, already populated with the gullible. Don’t troll here. > Peter Kolb > Biomedical Engineer
now that we’ve seen your credentials, I’m sure that we’ll be compelled to abandon real science for your musings…
Response:
YooHoo! Over here! Have I got your attention? Try Alt.Support.Asthma.Buteyko ….. that group is interested. The only mention I have seen here is to tell people interested in it to go there or those pushing it to go away. Now, that being said, I would suspect that protocol dictates that it needs to be there since it’s discussion here is "off topic" here and pretty much off limits, unless you happen to like being filtered everywhere you go. Just my two cents worth. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > If you are sick and tired of hearing about Buteyko, why are you > reading this? Go away! > For the others who want to know more, there is a very good support > group which you can access via a link on our web site: > http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm > There is also an archive attached to the support group which you can > browse. > About a year ago when I last looked at the Yahoo information page, > there were around 250 people on this group. It has probably grown > since then. > Peter Kolb > Biomedical Engineer > Free information provided by grateful ex-asthmatics > http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm
Response:
If you are sick and tired of hearing about Buteyko, why are you reading this? Go away! For the others who want to know more, there is a very good support group which you can access via a link on our web site: http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm There is also an archive attached to the support group which you can browse. About a year ago when I last looked at the Yahoo information page, there were around 250 people on this group. It has probably grown since then. Peter Kolb Biomedical Engineer Free information provided by grateful ex-asthmatics http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm
Response:
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